A key component of pregnancy and parenting is communication with your partner. Licensed Professional Counselor Tim Carroll joins Jen and Dan on this episode to talk about the importance of that communication and how to make sure it happens.
Narrator (00:00):
Welcome to the Moms Circle Podcast, presented by Floyd Medical Center, a place for new moms, veteran moms and moms to be to hear expert advice from experienced healthcare professionals. Here are your hosts, Dan Bevels and Jen Carroll.
Dan Bevels (00:16):
Welcome back everyone to our Moms Circle podcast from Floyd Medical Center. We're so glad to be with you. I'm Dan Bevels, and joined as always by Jen Carroll. Jen is a childbirth and lactation educator at Floyd and is, as I say always just a wealth of knowledge and we are so glad to be with you today to talk about what I think is going to be a really just a wonderful topic, and I'm excited to jump into it.
Dan Bevels (00:41):
But Jen, before we do that, I want to encourage folks as always to reach out to us if you have questions or comments or ideas for future shows. You can do that a couple of ways. One, you can join our Moms Circle at Floyd Facebook group. We would love to hear from you there. If you're not a member already, we encourage you to do that. If you are, reach out and let us know what you're thinking about the podcast, and if you have suggestions for topics or that type of thing, or if you think, you know what, Dan just talks too much. If that's your comment, that's okay too. We would love to hear from you, so you can reach out to us there, or you could also email momscircle@floyd.org, and we would love to communicate with you there as well. So send those questions in.
Dan Bevels (01:21):
Jen, as a matter of fact, why don't we start with a question that we're getting. Actually, I hear this one from a lot of folks and maybe this is even more pertinent given the fact that we have been in the middle of a pandemic, and the question relates to screen time and how much screen time is appropriate. You were even sharing with me before we started the podcast that we're even seeing screen time be an issue for even smaller children. Could you talk a little bit about that and, and what might be important?
Jen Carroll (01:50):
Yes, Dan. For sure, I'm not the expert, but I can tell you that recent studies are showing that through this time when parents have been isolated, the amount of screen time that children are being exposed to has gone up significantly. Since I focus mainly on newborns up to about a year or two years, I'm always interested in information, scientific research, that shows the effect of screen time on babies. Obviously we want to limit screen time for children up to two years. Many, many pediatricians would say, please don't have any screen time. I think that that's probably unrealistic. It is such a part of our society that babies very quickly are attracted to a mom's phone. They see the television on in the house and they're going to be attracted to those things, so we have to be realistic and say okay, babies are going to be exposed to screen time from the time they notice you have a phone in your hand.
Jen Carroll (03:02):
Actually, that starts by six months. Babies are already aware that you're looking at your phone. I am amazed how quickly little kids adapt and to start to use their finger on the screen before they even know what they're doing. They know that you do something with your finger and they will start it by the time they're one for sure.
Jen Carroll (03:23):
What are some guidelines? Well, first of all, it's not a good thing to park your baby in front of a screen for hours. Okay. If you're going to expose your baby to screen time, first of all, make sure that it is something that would be age appropriate; a child's program that is made to appeal to little tiny children, and then small, small time. This needs to be the exception, not the rule. As we know, screen time can be addictive, so you want to really hold off on any screen time as long as possible. Then when you do introduce it to your child, let it be in small, small doses. There's a lot of information out there and we'll have to do a podcast on screen time and children. We'll look for that, Dan. I think that would be a really great topic to actually give parents some more information, because this is something that there's a lot of research going into and I think this would be helpful for moms.
Dan Bevels (04:34):
I completely agree, and I think back again to when our daughters were young and screen time for us was we'd occasionally put on a videotape for them to watch or something like that. These days, it's just always there because you said it, the phone is just always present, so it's takes less and less effort to do that, and maybe we should make more and more effort not to do that.
Jen Carroll (05:02):
Exactly. I think that's the rule of thumb. Make the effort not to have screen time, because it's everywhere.
Dan Bevels (05:10):
That's great advice. Again, if you have questions like that, feel free to email us at momscircle@floyd.org. Well, Jen, I've been looking forward to today's topic. I think it's going to be really interesting and I'm really excited to get into it, so why don't you introduce our guest? I think someone you know really well and we'll jump right in.
Jen Carroll (05:26):
Okay. Today we have someone with us who's actually the most important person in my world. We have Tim Carroll, who is my husband, and also a licensed professional counselor. Tim has years of experience supporting families and he has several areas of expertise. One of them is perinatal mood disorders and grief. He has a whole lot going on here, but the greatest thing to me is the person that he is. Tim and I have three grown children and seven grandchildren. The good thing about today is that I know that this man is going to share with you some things that he's not only learned through academic endeavor, but things that he has practiced out in his life. Our topic today is staying connected as new parents, some keys to communication. Tim and I have had many years to practice these things. Tim, I'm so glad you're going to join us today.
Tim Carroll (06:40):
Thanks for having me.
Jen Carroll (06:42):
Dan, because you're also a dad, I thought today would we'd do something a little different. I think that we need to do a podcast that can really address things from a dad's perspective. When I thought about this communication, we put so much emphasis on things that moms need to learn about and moms need to do. I thought today we'd kind of switched that up, and I'd like for you guys to kind of talk about this communication from the partner standpoint and what is needed. I'm going to be here and maybe I'll add a female perspective as we go through, but I think it would be really helpful for moms to hear this and also for partners to hear about ways that we can stay connected when we have a new baby in the house.
Dan Bevels (07:36):
Jen, I think it's a great idea. Tim, I look forward to talking to you about this because I remember what it was like when my wife shared with me that we were expecting and then just to go through that nine months and realized that my experience as an expectant father was different than her experience as an expectant mother because she begins bonding with that child immediately. Whereas really I'm walking beside her, but it's not until the birth that I have that type of experience. We realized early on that communication is vitally important. Maybe we just start there. From day one of realizing that you are expecting a child, what would you recommend?
Tim Carroll (08:20):
Again, I think you just, right from out of the gate, you're hitting on something so important that the experience is quite different, I think, for men and for women and having those opportunities to talk about what's happening, to talk about pregnancy, to learn. I think for dads one of the things that Floyd offers that's so important is to get into some sort of childbirth education class as a dad and learn as much as you can about what's happening during pregnancy. I think not only is the material and the experience of the class beneficial, but it creates so many on-ramps for conversations because when you're in the car, driving home...
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:09:04]
Tim Carroll (09:03):
... The on-ramps for conversations, because when you're in the car driving home, or later that evening, you can talk about your wife's experience and you can begin to be curious about what's going on for her. And she can even begin to be curious about what your experience is like as you're walking through this together. Again, I think part of what happens is we just don't know what we don't know. There's a lot of excitement and anticipation around having your baby. And then, we're totally blindsided by the challenges of becoming a new parent. In particular, just the stress and the strain that that puts on our relationship is just such a huge life transition.
Dan Bevels (09:43):
What can we do to prepare for that? And I know the old joke that nothing will ever actually prepare you, but I'm sure there are some steps that we can take in anticipation of that change. What would you recommend?
Tim Carroll (09:54):
I think that, again, a lot of it is about being engaged right from the get go, when you first find out that you're expecting and just understanding that the change and the transition, it doesn't end. There's not like this end point when the baby is born. I think a lot of us have this assumption that... I can remember as a new dad, baby is born, like literally in the delivery there's this immediate like, is everything okay? You're counting fingers and toes and you're checking to see is everything okay? Is mom healthy? Is the baby healthy?
Tim Carroll (10:32):
And then, I think a lot of times, I mean, I'm just being honest, as men, I think a lot of times there's kind of this deep sigh of relief. Mom is okay. Baby is okay. And almost maybe a temptation to sort of go back to sort of this, okay. Everything is normal now and everything is not normal now. I think that's where we need to catch ourselves. Baby is okay? Great. Mom is okay? Great. That's great. Let's take a moment and let's pause and let's enjoy. Let's celebrate. Let's have that day or two or three or week of just enjoying and celebrating together, but we need to recognize that, you know what? This is not the end of something.
Tim Carroll (11:17):
This is really the beginning of something, because not only have you just been through nine months of pregnancy, labor and delivery, now you're beginning to adjust to bringing this newborn hall. Your sleep is going to be disrupted. You're trying to figure out newborn care and feeding, bottle feeding, breastfeeding. You're basically completely reorganizing your life around caring for this newborn who is completely dependent on you. Your schedule, your routines have changed. Likely roles have been redefined, just such a huge time of adjustment.
Tim Carroll (11:55):
Your time alone as a couple, at least for a time, has gone out of the window. I mean, it's just gone out of the window. It can feel like your workload is tripled. Your in-laws may be driving you nuts when it comes to trying to find out answers or trying to figure things out. We get on the internet. We talk to friends. We talk to different sources, but no one seems to be on the same page about anything. And so, it's just trying to find information can be very stressful. So, again, I think part of it for us as dads and as partners is recognizing that healthy baby healthy mom doesn't mean our job is over. It's really just a transition to like a new chapter. We've summited, but there's another peak in front of us. And we've got to sort of prepare ourselves mentally that, "Hey, now we're moving into another part of what it means to be a parent and to be a partner." So, our job is not done.
Dan Bevels (12:50):
And I think that... I want to think about how I phrase this, Tim, but I think it's important to understand that the emotions and maybe the worries that we have as a dad is different than the emotions and the worries that a mom has. And I think, and maybe particularly if it's the case where mom is going to stay at home for a while with the baby, and so dad is probably to a larger degree maybe concerned about not just the mom and the baby itself, but also what that means for the family dynamic, what it means financially, what it means.
Tim Carroll (13:27):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dan Bevels (13:28):
All those things. Do you find that that's the case as well?
Tim Carroll (13:30):
Absolutely.
Dan Bevels (13:31):
And, if so, how do we communicate about that?
Tim Carroll (13:33):
Absolutely. I think a lot of times new dads can almost feel like this whole new burden of responsibility around providing financial responsibility, sort of a seriousness maybe that comes into their lives and a real focus on wanting to be that provider, wanting to provide security for their family. And yet, one of the real keys... this is, again, I think something we need to remind ourselves. One of the keys also to being a good parent is continuing to nurture your friendship, and your teamwork, and your connection as a couple. That's what we've got to keep in focus. Like part of my being a good dad is I want to try and continue to nurture my friendship, my teamwork, my connection with my partner.
Dan Bevels (14:25):
I'm really glad you brought that up because I know, in my own case, my wife and I had just some really wonderful mentors when we were younger. And I think maybe the best advice we ever received as we were discussing our beginning of a family was that my relationship with my wife is and has to be the most important relationship in our family because that's where everything else starts. And so, if I want to have a healthy relationship with, in our case, my daughters, then it is imperative that my relationship with my wife is healthy because we have to approach that as a team. So, it's important throughout the life of the child. But it also is preparing us, I think, for a time when, at some point, it's going to be back to just the two of us in the household. And we have to understand who we are as a couple and not just who we are as parents. Is that fair to say?
Tim Carroll (15:23):
Absolutely. 100% correct. Not only that, but our kids, even from a very young age, are picking up on the emotional environment that they're in. They're picking up on the dynamics between mom and dad. They're picking up on the dynamics between their primary caregivers. They're picking up on the emotional environment that they're in. And so, again, if there's a lot of tension, if there's a lot of anxiety, if there's a lot of conflict, they're picking up on that, even when they're very, very young. And so, if there is a sense of stability, if there's a sense of predictability, if there's a sense of partners who are working together, not in the absence of conflict, I mean, couples who have no conflict I'm really concerned about. But couples who can work through conflict, couple who there's friendship, there's teamwork, there's connection, that's providing stability. Even at a very young age, newborns thrive on that sense of stable environment.
Tim Carroll (16:23):
So, one of the things that I really encourage dads, there's this sense of responsibility that may come and a big focus on what they need to do outside the home to provide security. But one of the things I really encourage dads to do is I want you to think about the first five minutes. And I just frame it that way. First five minutes. It's really about more than the first five minutes, but just as a helpful tool, I want you to think about the first five minutes that you've gone back to work. Mom, let's assume, is at home with the newborn. You've gone back to work. You're working hard. You're telling everybody about your new baby, whatever.
Tim Carroll (16:59):
I want you to think about the first five minutes when you get home. I want you to prepare for those first five minutes as you're getting ready to come home. And I want you to begin to make a mental, emotional shift. Okay? So that, when you walk through the door, you are able to be fully present. I want you to stop what you're doing. I want you to be able to get off your phone. I want you to be able to really listen and pay attention when you walk through the door, I want you to be completely focused on your partner.
Tim Carroll (17:33):
Typically, a lot of us, we walk in the door and the first thing we do is we pick up the mail or in the olden days we might pick up the newspaper. Whatever it is you do, go to the garage, or whatever your routine is, in those first five minutes, a lot of us, when we come home from a busy day, the first thing we think about is I want to let down. I want to decompress. I want to get away from my busy day. I want to do those things that help me relax. And what I'm saying is, I want you to think about those first five minutes as primetime-
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:18:04]
Tim Carroll (18:03):
What I'm saying is I want you to think about those first five minutes as prime time to connect with your partner, and I want you to have a plan to do that. I want you to be intentional about those first five minutes. Make those a priority, be conscious, be intentional to track with your partner when you come walking through the door. Super important. Now that the baby's home, part of your job in addition to being the provider is to track with your partner when you come home. Super important. It's really an incredible opportunity. Think about what it communicates if mom's been at home taking care of Junior, or the newborn, all day and we come home and in those first five minutes we walk in and we walk right past her.
Dan Bevels (18:47):
I think that there are a couple of things I would like to ask you about related to that. One, I've been blessed to have wonderful folks in my life who have offered advice. One of the really cool pieces of advice I got was to find a landmark on my drive home. Maybe it's the stop sign at my turn turning onto my street or something like that, and once I reach that landmark on my way home, that's when I set the briefcase down and that's my time to stop focusing on work and to begin preparing, as you said-
Tim Carroll (19:22):
Absolutely.
Dan Bevels (19:22):
... for my role as a husband or a dad, and dad.
Tim Carroll (19:28):
The first five minutes. Absolutely. A landmark, a traffic light, some concrete point, because a lot of us are still disengaging from our day as we're coming home, but there's got to be a point before I pull in the driveway. Some of us pull in the driveway, it's not infrequent, I do the same thing, we pull in the driveway and we're still on the phone. We need to find, especially as a new parent... It's less about the newborn and it's more about the partner. It's more about walking through the door and focusing on the partner and not being preoccupied with something else. It's being available. It's being focused on the partner. Having that landmark.
Tim Carroll (20:01):
One of the precious things I think Floyd offers is an opportunity for a photo for new parents and their babies. If you've got a photo that you like of your partner and your newborn, I encourage guys to get a little, smaller size version of that, and to even put it on their dashboard, or put it somewhere in their car to help them to make that transition, to focus on, "Hey, you know what, it's their time now when I walk through that door." Make that first five minutes really significant because that really sets you up well for some other things that are super important.
Tim Carroll (20:37):
Learning to listen, super easy to say, super hard to do. Learning how to listen, learning how to really listen in a way that communicates understanding, whether it's understanding exhaustion or frustration or helplessness or something else, maybe something positive. I think a lot of times, as men, we want to fix things and we want to be problem solvers, and that's not a bad thing, but we need to learn how to listen first. Okay? Listen first. Listen first. Understanding always precedes problem solving. Always. It's foundational.
Tim Carroll (21:15):
Again, there may be a sense of, man, you walk in and she says, "I'm so exhausted. He hasn't slept. He's crying." Or, "She's crying. She won't settle." There may be a long list of things that are difficult, there may be exhaustion. Again, it's important to learn how to not rush into problem solving, because if we rush too quickly to problem solving, the unintended effect is the person feels like we haven't heard them.
Dan Bevels (21:45):
That's excellent advice regardless of where you are in your marriage. That will benefit you even before children come along, to realize those differences in communication styles and how differently we approach things as males compared to how our wives do. I think that's just wonderful advice.
Tim Carroll (22:00):
Most of us don't really listen. We listen to the first few words and then we begin to problem solve or we begin to form a conclusion, we mind-read. A lot of times we'll begin to defend, or we'll hear some sort of accusation, we'll form some sort of counterargument. The truth is most of us are not listening with the intent to understand. We're really listening with the intent to form some sort of reply, so we're not really listening.
Tim Carroll (22:27):
Just learning how to separate listening from problem solving. If I walk in and I'm met with, "You take the baby, I am done, I'm exhausted," I want to somehow be able to listen without judgment, without criticism, without asking why, without questioning, initially. I just want to tune into, "Gosh, it sounds like you've had a really, really draining day and you're absolutely spent. Let me take the baby for a few minutes."
Dan Bevels (22:59):
Can I ask you maybe about another aspect or another-
Tim Carroll (23:03):
Sure.
Dan Bevels (23:03):
When I think about that first five minutes, something that happens later in the child's development, because I can remember, as my oldest daughter, as she grew and got to the point where she was pulling up and things like that, I can remember walking in the door, and I had been at work all day and my wife had been home with our daughter, and the look on my daughter's face when I walked in the door was just wonderful because she was so excited to see dad and just thrilled to see me and it was just a wonderful moment, and that time right after I got home was so much fun. But I also had to understand that that's not the experience that my wife has because she had been with my daughter all day long, so she often doesn't have those moments of, "Yay, Mom's here," like we experience as dad. How do we balance that, the joy of experiencing that with our child while also understanding that our wives often have very different experiences?
Tim Carroll (23:58):
That's just such a great, insightful question. I think a lot of it comes back to really trying to keep nurturing your relationship and setting aside times to hear what's been happening and not just assume that your experience based on that 15, 20, 30 second initial encounter of your daughter just lighting up, "Daddy's home," that that's representative of the whole day. It's certainly true of that moment and it's something to really enjoy and it's something to embrace, but as you say, it's really important to recognize that that might not be representative of the whole day.
Tim Carroll (24:40):
Making sure that we're taking time to check in and say, "Hey, tell me about your day. I had this incredible moment when I walked in, but tell me what the day was like." Then, again, recognizing that we need to listen in a way that really communicates that we're hearing and understanding her day might have been really, really different, and not questioning... We just had this amazing experience, it would be really easy... If she's talking about what a hard day it's been, it would be really easy to begin to question her and to ask, "Well, why was it so hard? Why was it so difficult? Why is this so difficult, being a mom? I just walked in and she seemed fine. Why is it so difficult?"
Tim Carroll (25:29):
Why is such a loaded word and I would say stay away from that word, why, and just say, "Hey, help me understand what was difficult about today. Help me understand. I want to hear about what it was like for you." We want to get much, much better, both of us, about staying on the same team, and part of that involves getting better about talking about what we need, what we're experiencing, and how we're feeling without blaming or accusing or criticizing the other person.
Tim Carroll (26:03):
Also, the flip side of that is we need to get better at listening to each other. Talk about how the other thinks and feels and is experiencing life without judging or questioning or comparing or taking things so personally and becoming defensive.
Tim Carroll (26:18):
If I come home and my wife is exhausted, and feeling like, at the end of it all, I want her to be able to say, "Babe, I am done. Can you please take the baby?" I want her to feel the freedom to say that. What I don't want to do is walk in and for her to say, "You know, I'm done and it's your fault and you take the baby. I'm exhausted and done and spent and it's really your fault." That's sets us up for a really unhelpful evening.
Tim Carroll (26:55):
I also want her to feel just that freedom, if she's feeling exhausted, to say, "I'm exhausted and I need help."
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:27:04]
Tim Carroll (27:03):
... feeling exhausted, to say, "I'm exhausted and I need help. I really need help. I need you to do this." I don't know if that makes sense. Just that freedom to be able to say how I'm doing and what I need without it having an edge to it.
Dan Bevels (27:16):
Yeah, I think it's because it's really easy for us, regardless of the best intentions, to ask a question that just could not be phrased any worse. I think about what you were saying earlier about, well, why was your day hard? And what a landmine that is. So I think it's not just what we ask, but you're absolutely right, it's the way we ask it.
Tim Carroll (27:44):
Let me tell you about my day. I mean, I've heard a lot of ... We get into this comparison thing. Well, you think your day is hard, let me tell you how hard my day was. Again that's why I'm saying, as you were suggesting with the landmark, when I hit that landmark and I look at that photo, I've got a job to do. I'm on a mission. And my mission involves a mindset for that first five minutes that regardless of what I encounter, when I walk through the door, I want to be present, I want to be available. I want to be a really good listener and I want to listen in a way that's supportive and really communicates understanding that is not going to get all defensive, and things may be said that we need to circle back to, but wait. Remember, listening and understanding precedes problem solving.
Tim Carroll (28:35):
So it may be in that first five minutes that there's problems that come up. That's okay. You don't have to deal with them right then and there. That's okay. Listen to them, make sure you understand them. They'll still be there an hour from now or two hours from now. That's okay. But if we try and deal with those problems right then and there in the heat of the moment when we're both exhausted, it's not going to go well. I think another big thing for dads too, Dan, is I think we really need to commit to really learning and growing in areas of baby care and baby development. Just because baby's home doesn't mean the work is done. We've got to be an engaged parent. I just love it when I get to talk to dads who are really curious about their babies and about what they can do to be involved, to be more involved.
Tim Carroll (29:31):
And again, one of the things that I so respect about what Floyd is doing is there's such a commitment to educating and supporting and coming alongside dads. Hey, here's how to bathe your baby. Here's how to help feed your baby. Here's how to help soothe your baby. I mean, do you know what a gift for a dad to actually learn some of the skills that we know work to soothe a crying baby? For a dad to be able to do that. So it's much more than just changing diapers. As a dad, I want to be engaged. I want to learn how. I think for moms, there can be a tendency sometimes to ... Jen, you might have to help them with the terminology, goal keeping or goal tending. I think there can sometimes be a little bit of anxiety or fear around letting dads be hands-on. What's the term for that? I can't remember exactly.
Jen Carroll (30:30):
I think goal keeping is good. I think it comes from, does dad know how to do this? And that's where it comes back to dad participating early on in taking the class with the mom and then asking questions, being willing to have dialogue about things about the baby, which may not be his first topic he wants to talk about, but setting time. If that's not a good time saying, "I really am interested." And I like what you said about circling back and saying, "Okay, so you wanted to talk about this topic. Okay, I'm ready. Let's talk about it." And making time to engage with the mom in topics that are outside of his normal zone will help increase her trust and his attention to the baby and to the needs of the baby. So yeah, I think that there's ways to work together to build that.
Dan Bevels (31:38):
We're getting to that place where we begin to think about wrapping up an episode. But honestly, there's such great information here that I hate to end. So how about this? Would you be willing to record a part two to this episode and we can continue what we're talking about now, and then maybe explore the topic even a little bit deeper if you're willing to do that?
Tim Carroll (31:58):
Absolutely. I'd love to do that, Dan.
Dan Bevels (32:00):
Great. So we'll do that in a part two of this episode. You can expect that to be posted very soon because we don't want to short change this. It's such an important part of the childbirth process. It's one of those things that I think very often can be ignored because you are thinking about the more physical part of giving birth and what that means, but there is that emotional connectivity between partners that is so important as you approach childbirth and then once the baby is here too. So we want to continue this conversation in an effort to help you navigate that. So we encourage you to look for that part two coming up very soon. And in the meantime, if you have any questions, you can always email us, momscircle@floyd.org, and then also be sure to join that Moms Circle Facebook group on Facebook, great information there as well, and find out more about our Family Birth Center at floyd.org. We look forward to talking to you very soon and continuing this important conversation. Until then, have a great rest of your week. Thanks for joining us.
Narrator (33:06):
Thanks for joining us on the Moms Circle podcast. Be sure to join our Moms Circle Facebook group for more conversation between Floyd's experts and moms like you. And if you have any questions about today's podcast or would like to suggest a topic for an upcoming episode, email us at momscircle@floyd.org. Also, if you haven't already, be sure to download the My Floyd Baby app for a personalized health newsfeed for every member of your family. You can find the app at floyd.org/baby or in your app store. Thanks for joining us.
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